PowerChromatic Saxony or deluxe Steel?

[Ben Hodgson]

https://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel ... Seydel&s=1

Hi, I’m a Diatonic blues player about to buy my first ‘bendable’ Chromatic. I’m looking at the Seydel PowerChromatic Saxony or the Seydel PowerChromatic deluxe Steel (I think the only difference between them being price and that the deluxe steel has a plastic comb ironically and half moon mouthpiece)? Also looked at the Easttop Forerunner 2 but I can’t ascertain the note range and I don’t know if I can get it serviced in the UK. The unbent note range on the Seydel is A3-G#6 and I’m wanting to cover a song (Great Gig In The Sky) which has (I think) a note range of B3-G6. The song is in the key of F but I could perhaps play in 2nd position in Bb (if playing Chromatics is similar to Diatonics in that regard?).

No specific question here but any thoughts welcome - I can’t afford to spend three hundred quid on the wrong harp! I'm also at a loss with the Seydel configurator, way above my play by ear technical grade!

Cheers

[triona]

Hi Ben,

considering the price I would recommend the Deluxe Steel. The reedplates of the Deluxe Steel are exactly the same as of the Saxony. For me the plastic (acrylic) comb is better because I have an intolerance to aluminium. For configurated harmonicas you can chose which mouthpiece you want. (I.e. the first step of the configuration.)

What problems do you have with the Seydel configurator? Maybe I can help you, if you specify? Btw: "PowerChromatic" is selectable as an "Initial Standard Tuning." If you select "A (A3 = 220Hz)" you get the following layout of notes covering the range you stated above:



One thing you should be aware of: You can not cancel and return a configurated harmonica after it has been produced. They are custom products made especially for the respective order.

Also looked at the Easttop Forerunner 2 but I can’t ascertain the note range and I don’t know if I can get it serviced in the UK.

As far as I know Easttop, there seems to be no aftersales service at all. Their harmonicas are considered to be "throw-away-products". That means: no service, no spare parts available. Aftersales service and availability of spare parts constitute a significant part of the higher price of Seydel harmonicas. Of course, this service is not cheap either.


dear greetings
triona

[Ben Hodgson]

Hi Triona and thank you for your help!

I see now that I can maintain the 'Powerchromatic' tuning option throughout the configuration process

I'm unsure whether to opt for compromised/just intonation/equal temperament so I have stuck with equal temperament and standard Pitch (?)

I have checked the tuning 'key' and think perhaps you have screenshot a 'G' tuning not an 'A'? If that is the case, then the 'G' tuning does have the lowest and highest notes required for the song (B3-G6). I can't figure how you uploaded that screengrab image or I'd post grabs of the G and A layouts.

I see you have all the blue boxes checked above all the reeds which I understand denotes having the reed valved although doing this would prevent the bending of those reeds which is part of the attraction of the half-valved Powerchromatic principle. On this topic - it seems that the Blow reeds are not valved but the Draw reeds are valved - surely this should be the other way around with the Draw notes being unvalved and therefore able to bend?

Combs: I have various comb materials on all my diatonics, including orange plastic session steels and they are fine. I also have some rarely used Suzuki Promaster diatonics which have Aluminium combs that I'm not allergic to and quite like the weight of - so I may go for that maybe.

Servicing: Yes, not being into reed tuning/gapping etc I'll need back-up at some point - even from an independent harp geek and Seydel have great parts availability.

Ben

[triona]

I'm unsure whether to opt for compromised/just intonation/equal temperament so I have stuck with equal temperament and standard Pitch (?)

Compromised is recommended as a standard. With compromised tuning it does not matter in which key you play. The chords will sound optimal in any key (position) played.

I have checked the tuning 'key' and think perhaps you have screenshot a 'G' tuning not an 'A'? If that is the case, then the 'G' tuning does have the lowest and highest notes required for the song (B3-G6). I can't figure how you uploaded that screengrab image or I'd post grabs of the G and A layouts.

Chosing "G3" gives the same range as "A3", but not the same layout. There are some notes interchanged between slide in or slide out. But this makes no difference because both of them are fully chromatic tunings anyway. Depending on which position you play it any key is possible to play. It is just another slide move pattern and another breathing pattern. And bends will be different as well. If you want to play mainly english, scottish or irish folk, maybe G is the better choice.

Here is G:


and here is A:



Btw, how I did it with the diagram:
1. Screenshot, saved as jpg
2. Upload picture to a picture host (I used https://picr.de ; but there are more, most propably with english menu navigation as well)
3. put link into the forum's text editor

I see you have all the blue boxes checked above all the reeds which I understand denotes having the reed valved although doing this would prevent the bending of those reeds which is part of the attraction of the half-valved Powerchromatic principle. On this topic - it seems that the Blow reeds are not valved but the Draw reeds are valved - surely this should be the other way around with the Draw notes being unvalved and therefore able to bend?

I did not consider about the valves at all on my sample. (As a matter of fact: I never thought about the coherence of valves and bending. I have a Deluxe Steel PowerChrom in G. But I got it used. And I never have looked, which reeds are valved and which are not. But I did not play it very often anyway.) Just do it like you prefer to. As an advice: To remove a valve is easier than to fit one, if you have one at all. As far as I know it makes no difference in the price, whether the harmonica or single reeds are valved or unvalved.

Combs: I have various comb materials on all my diatonics, including orange plastic session steels and they are fine. I also have some rarely used Suzuki Promaster diatonics which have Aluminium combs that I'm not allergic to and quite like the weight of - so I may go for that maybe.

The "plastic" comb available for the Deluxe Steel (and the Sampler, Fanfare, Symphony too) is acrylic resin, also called acrylic polymer. It has better physical characteristics than most of the other plastic materials used for harmonicas. It is different from the orange comb of the Session Steel. It is more expensive too.

The Saxony has a higher price anyway - be it configurated or standard, due to the aluminium comb. If you prefer this, you might be willing to pay for this. But as I already wrote: The reedplates of the Saxony are the same as of the Deluxe Steel.


dear greetings
triona

[EdvinW]

2nd position works well on a PowerChromatic. When I ask the Seydel configurator for a PowerChromatic in the key of Bb though, its lowest note is a C! You could easily shift it so that blow notes become Bb, C, Eb, G, Bb, etc (A#, C, D#, A# in their notation!) That would give you the covarage you want.

I'm unsure whether to opt for compromised/just intonation/equal temperament so I have stuck with equal temperament and standard Pitch (?)

The compromised/just/equal intonation is a matter of taste, but I'm not sure what compromise they would use for a PowerChromatic.

Just intonation is one extreme, where you play many chords in a single key. If you deviate from this key or play unusual chords in the key they might sound off. For instance, with just intonation in the key of C, the whole-tone intervals C–D and D–E are not equal. You have one really good key, some ok keys and many horrible ones.

Equal temperament makes sure all corresponding intervals are the same size, but makes chords sound a little off. All keys are the same, and chords are not the best.

If you have a small set of keys you like to play in, you can find a compromise, so that many of the chords sound better than equal temperament. To do that, the one tuning needs to know what you want to play.

With standard tuning, either chromatic or diatonic, there are comparatively few chords, so it's relatively easy to make it so that 1st, 2nd, 3rd and maybe 12th position playing sounds good.

With custom tunings, I'm not sure they have an established compromise they follow, and if they do it would depend on how far away from the main key they think you'll go.

I usually order my Seydels in equal temperament for this reason, so my experience with their other intonations are limited. I have one or two Seydels off their shelf, and at least one of them sounds a bit odd when I play it in keys further away from that on the label.

If you mainly play single note music, and are not too bothered with chords, I would go for equal temperament.


As for the standard pitch, I'd lower it. For some reason standard Seydel pitch is 443 Hz, which is almost always too high when I play with other musicians. I always order them tuned 441 Hz, which works well.

Compromised is recommended as a standard. With compromised tuning it does not matter in which key you play. The chords will sound optimal in any key (position) played.

Do you know which compromise they use? If it's close enough to equal this might be true.


EDIT: I don't know if you sill consider a standard tuned chromatic, but you talk about positions and should know they work a little different on standard tuned chroms than they do on diatonics. On a standard tuned chromatic in C, playing in the key of G (2nd position) requires use of the button, even if it's half valved. To make matters worse, the button is only pressed for one note (the F#), and can not be used for any other note except for one extra C. Playing in D, there are two notes you need to push the button for, F# and C# (though you could also bend to get the C#). Again, their un-pushed equivalents are not in the scale. If you instead play in the key of F and use the button for an Bb note, the adjacent A note sits in the same hole and same direction of air, so you can often avoid changing holes, changing breath and changing the slide all at the same time!

Compare this with a PowerChromatic in C. Here you can play in 5 keys – Bb, F, C, G and D – without touching the slide at all, though you need to do a lot of bending in the outer keys.

[triona]

Do you know which compromise they use? If it's close enough to equal this might be true.

No, I do not.

[Ben Hodgson]

Thanks Edvin and, again - Triona.

The many variables you both point out are really helpful and also serve to remind me of why I have stuck with a bagful of Diatonics till now!
BTW here is a short video of Brendan explaining scales on a G Powerchromatic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDsP4k8-N8g

If you mainly play single note music, and are not too bothered with chords, I would go for equal temperament.

Yes, mainly single note.

I'm asking Seydel about the valved draw reeds and un-valved blow reeds which appear as default on the configurator - I just can't understand that!

Cheers,

Ben

[triona]

I'm asking Seydel about the valved draw reeds and un-valved blow reeds which appear as default on the configurator - I just can't understand that!

That might be the best to ask them. But I presume that it is the default suggestion of the automatical mode of the configurator, that a 12/48 chrom is valved on both of the reedplates from hole 1 to 11 - regardless of the tuning. It might be just a digital programming routine with no musical intention.

But keep in mind: The configurator allows for any single reed to chose whether it shall be valved or not. If you start with the default automaical suggestion, you must manually deselect all reeds you do not want to be valved. If you start with a plain schedule, you must manually opt in the selection of each reed to get it valved or not.

You also can select the tuning of each reed freely - be it by changing the configurator's automatical suggestion or be it by manual choice in the plain schedule. If you want to do the latter, you must select "Fill with notes" > "manually".





Btw: If the configurator shows you plain boxes after the configuration, that means that Seydel has no reeds available for this note in this hole. They do not retune reeds by more than some cents of finetuning in a new harmonica. That you must do yourself. I presume this might be a question of warranty.

Once I wanted a reedplate tuned to A mixolydian instead of A major. There were just 3 G# to retune down to a G. They did not do this. They changed the 3 reeds. And I had to wait until the parcel came in instead of just taking home the harmonica from the factory shop at once.


dear greetings
triona

[Ben Hodgson]

Was helpfully sent this link by Bertram at Seydel https://www.seydel1847.de/epages/Seydel ... ctID=15582

Half-valving (Chromatic Harmonicas)

If a valve is closing the higher tuned reed of the pair in one hole then >bending notes remains possible to play . This is referred to as HALF-VALVING!

If you like to get extra-bendability of certain notes on a Chromatic harmonica be sure to valve the lower tuned reed of a pair in one hole: e.g. hole 1 blow is a C and 1 draw is a D: If you put a valve to the C-reed the draw note D can be bended down to Db (draw bending).

However this principle works as well vice versa: for a pair of reeds like blow D and draw C with a valve on the C reed you could play an additional blow-bending note, namely the Db.

Other example: if you consider a pair of reeds in one hole like: blow C and draw E and there is a valve on the lower tuned reed (blow reed, C), the draw note can be bent down from E to Eb, to D and even to Db.

Please note: due to the construction of a Chromatic bending of notes is more difficult in general compared to bending on a Blues harmonica.